Photoshop Painting. Copyright 2011 Totsymae
The votes are in in Mississippi. That life doesn’t start at fertilization.
So, when does it? When is it too late to abort? When does it become a baby? What do most scientists say? Who should decide? Does the father have a right to know and decide? Is he irrelevant? Why shouldn’t he know or have rights? Can he charge for murder? Why sleep with him when nothing is 100%? Is it okay if the mother’s life is threatened? It doesn’t count anymore when a mother says she’d rather die than her child? Is it okay if the child is determined special needs and quality of life is a concern? Can a child born of rape be loved the same as a child born of love? Should the child know he/she was conceived through rape or molestation? Why not? Will there be resentment if the child is born? Is abortion being treated like birth control? Is that why the government is intervening? Is this only a big deal in North America? Why is that? Who are these other people saying it’s murder? Are they contributing to the welfare of the baby once he/she is born? Did they attend the baby shower bearing gifts or have a college fund set up? They think this is an easy decision? Why are they so angry or passionate about people they don’t know? So, what do scientists say about when life begins again? Does God say something different? Just curious.
This is my artwork for Day 9 of Art Every Day. Click the link to enjoy the work of more artists who are participating.
I'm an artist who's writing,mothering, blogging and doing a few other things under the sun. I buy toilet paper 99.9% of every trip I make to the grocery store. I'm a people watcher, so I know you're here but drop me a line anyway.
I like your painting.
To determine the exact moment a soul enters a body… sounds arrogant to me.
Thank you.
Hmmm…That’s an interesting way to look at it. You made me
think on your response for sure.
So many questions, not enough people fighting abortion! you very talented! God Bless
It just keeps coming up in the political arena and I never quite got
why.
Thank you for stopping by and your kind words. Blessings to you
also.
I personally am against abortion at any stage and think that life begins at fertilization. I think every life is valuable and it is not our place to end it. No matter if it’s a life started in abuse or rape. Just MO. Love the art!
I think right now, you’re outnumbered but that doesn’t matter really.
It’s how you feel and what anyone feels about it is right for them.
If you can hear me, read Beverly Diehl’s response and tell me
what you think.
I say Mississippi and the rest of these pro-life buttinskies should STFU and do something about the millions of children already ON this planet who are languishing in foster care and refugee camps. Adopt a severely disabled child from an institution if “all life is sacred.”
This summer, my son and his fiance lost my grandbaby-to-be, at five months along. I know they think of the fetus as a baby, and though I deeply mourn his loss, I don’t, quite, think of him as a baby.
I don’t think we KNOW when a fertilized egg/embryo/fetus becomes a human being. For many struggling with infertility, that dream baby exists even before there IS a fertilized egg. We all have our beliefs, and my belief is that the rights of a potential life (as many as 1/3 of all pregnancies end in natural miscarriage or stillbirth) cannot trump those of an existing life.
Google the case of the 9 year old in Brazil, secretly molested by her stepfather and carrying twins, taken by her mother to get a life-saving abortion. The Catholic Church excommunicated the MOTHER and the DOCTORS.
These same “pro-life” people pushing the Mississippi bill also tried to pass a law allowing anti-abortion hospitals to ALLOW A WOMAN TO DIE, if she shows up in the emergency room, bleeding, needing an emergency abortion to save her life. That could have been my DIL. And did this brain trust consider that if a pregnant woman dies, so does the fetus she’s carrying?
IMO, people who would rather see a woman dead than allow her a safe and legal abortion, are not pro-life, they are anti-woman. Abortion should ALWAYS be decided by the woman and her family. While late-term abortion makes me personally uncomfortable, I recognize that in most cases, there are valid medical reasons. IMO, abortion – at all stages of pregnancy – should be safe, legal and rare.
Beverly, I agree with every word you have written.
Abortions were illegal when I was growing up. People were going to Mexico and having their abortion. Or they were having them done here illegally. A personal friend of mine is barren as the result of a Mexican abortion. Abortions should be legal and safe. And anyone who says that even in cases of rape and incest abortions should be outlawed is amazing to me. If it were my daughter, and she became pregnant as the result of a rape or incest, I would certainly want her to have an abortion if she wanted to. Why anyone would insist on bringing an unwanted child into this world is beyond me.
The concept of save the child and lose the mother is also a weird one to me. Who in the hell is going to take care of that child and of the other children if the mother is dead? The Catholic Church has encouraged people for years to have more children than they can afford, more than they can take care of, and more than they can educate. Outlawing abortions along with outlawing contraceptives is actually evil in my view. Further, condoms can actually protect people from AIDS, a potentially deadly disease. I think the use of condoms is also forbidden by the church.
I believe they have modified their stance on the use of condoms in Africa, at least, where AIDS is so widespread.
Right now in Guatemala, overpopulation in rural areas is creating a crisis. Families are much larger than the land can support, resulting in many children with stunted growth and mental retardation, due to inadequate maternal nutrition during pregnancy. Still, the Church advocates against birth control. If their goal is to raise a large serf/slave population, they’re doing an admirable job.
Interestingly, though their stance is that families (read: women) should always be “open to the possibility of procreation,” during intercourse, they do NOT take a stand against intercourse between married partners who are infertile, whether because of age of other reasons. Apparently it is okay to have sex just for the fun of it – unless you are a fertile woman.
All valid points. I always believed this was a personal matter but I
also wonder if the government intervenes as a means of protection
against unethical practices. I understand that was more of an issue
when it was illegal, however, it must be an issue somewhere. I suppose
I don’t want to think politicians would intervene simply because they
have the power to do so.
I agree. It is very much a personal decision. The stories you illustrate
here confirms how individual circumstances cannot be judged by a
blanket decision.
I must always share that I’ve heard and know women who treat
abortion as birth control. When I reference this, I’m talking multiple
abortions. It is sad to see children they decide to have are afflicted
with ailments that have them in and out of doctors’ offices most of
their lives. In one particular case, the government pays for those
medical expenses and I’m sure there are other such cases out there.
I also know that more children with special needs are in the system
because they are less likely to find permanent families to adopt them.
So yes, pro-lifers would do well to extend their time in valuing the
lives that are here. I couldn’t agree more.
I had a boyfriend who was a doctor. He was very disturbed to be performing the 4th abortion on a 16 year old. But I still think that 16 year old should be allowed to end the pregnancy. She was probably the product of an unplanned pregnancy herself. Education and readily available contraceptives should be available to everyone.
Lord, Totsy, you opened a canna worms on this one. I firmly believe in a woman’s right to choose. I also firmly believe in taking precautions to avoid pregnancy. Still, this “contraceptive” business gets harder when you get older. Most doctors won’t order the pill for women over 35. So you are stuck with other methods that are risky and very bothersome. If you have the complete architectural drawings for a house, you do not have a house. If you have a squirt of semen, you do not have a baby. The government has no business trying to legislate what should be between a woman and her god. If people want to force any woman to bear a child, they should also offer to support that child financially, and physically and emotionally if the woman (biological mother) is not able or willing to do so. Seems many people care more about the rights of an embryo than they do the rights of a child or the right of a woman to make a choice that will change her life.
Your analogy makes logical sense to me, Linda. Acting responsibly is
first and foremost. I was thinking earlier that I can’t figure out why this
issue keeps coming up with every election, state and federal but I
know it’s that religion plays a stronger role in politics more than
what’s put out there. There is no separation of church and state.
What I don’t get is pro-lifers infringing on women who make a
decision about their life and body.
As I have mentioned before, I am not religious. But I do have morals and standards. Personal responsibility is always a factor. Still, I think that a pregnant 13 year old that does not want to have a baby has the right to an abortion. We are not brood mares. An individual woman has the right to control her own reproduction. I had an abortion when I was in my late 20′s. I was unmarried, uninsured, and already the mother to two children. I was working full time and knew for damn sure that I could not afford another baby. It was a very difficult decision for me. I had used birth control pills, and did not know that taking an antibiotic would make the pill ineffective. The abortion was not an easy thing for me at all, but it was the most responsible decision I could make under the circumstances. It was my personal business. No church could tell me what was the best thing for me and my existing children. No law should be passed to take that option off the table. There probably are people who use abortions as a form of birth control and that’s a shame. Still, I would bet those situations are not all that common. Abortions are much harder than taking a pill or using a condom.
It’s all fine and good to call it a personal decision when you don’t believe the embryo/fertilized egg/fetus is a human being. But if you truly believed that real children were being murdered, would you allow it to happen?
Believe what you want, of course, but I wouldn’t be too harsh on others for standing up for what they think is right. If you saw it from their eyes… To them abortion is no different from killing a newborn child. Who wouldn’t try to get in the way of that?
Emily, it’s not about whether I believe when life starts. It’s between the woman and her God, so indeed, that does make it personal. That is something she will have to wrestle with, forgive herself for and count on her faith to get her through whatever emotions are attached to her decision.
You may call my words harsh but I simply see pro-lifers’ acts as imposing and infringing on the rights of others. They have no personal stake in the life of that woman or the unborn, so why get in the way of it?
Do you agree that it should be illegal to murder your neigbor? husband? My point was that if you think abortion is different than you do not believe there is a person inside of a pregnant woman. This belief makes all the difference. That’s why I can sort of see the point of both sides, depending on what you believe an unborn child is.
A pro-choicer would believe they’re protecting the rights of a woman to make her own choices – a pro-lifer would believe they are protecting the child’s right to live.
(especially when that child could live a very happy life with an adoptive family who has been praying for a child their whole lives)
Imagine we’re living in a time where men stone women to death for adultery. Should we try to pass a law to stop such practices?
okay, my attempt at appearing objective has massively failed. It’s pretty clear what my opinion is.
I just hope for other’s to understand the motivation behind pro-life supporters – even if they disagree.
@ Linda – very brave of you, both to make that hard decision, and to share it.
@Emily S – who wouldn’t get in the way of murdering newborn babies? Or perhaps, older children? Most who designate themselves as “pro-life”. They romanticize “unborn babies,” and yet, too few of them adopt neglected and abused children. Or volunteer at family shelters for battered women and their children. Or contribute their presence as teacher’s aides in classrooms in troubled schools.
Granted, there *are* pro-lifers who do all these things. But if one was to measure, % of time devoted to prying into other women’s wombs & picketing in front of women’s health clinics, vs. % of time spent helping living children in trouble, for most pro-lifers the second gets little more than lip service.
Should the law overturn in favor of pro-life, one has to wonder
how much religion will interplay into the future of politics and whether
there will be a shift in the kind of government we know.
It would be more sad to see young girls having unsafe abortions than
seeing them pregnant.
Some years ago, I took a friend to an abortion clinic and there were
protestors outside. They were harmless, thankfully. And while I held the
belief that I couldn’t abort at that time, knowing her circumstances, I could
only support what was best for her and be the friend she needed. I was the
only one who knew her situation and could be there.It’s a very personal decision.
Anytime I reflect on it now, I’m thankful that I was a friend and not her judge
because I learned a little about compassion during that time.
Leaving the “when does life begin?” question alone because it will never be answered in a way that satisfied both sides, the danger of the bill MS was trying to pass was that it would restrict birth control – not only abortion – and possibly in vitro fertilization. Messing with birth control is dangerous and stupid (some reasons that don’t have anything to do with the obvious ["are you crazy? who are you to tell me I cant take a birth control or morning after pill?"] are pointed out in my fake interview with birth control opponent Rick Santorum), and messing with in vitro fertilization will anger a lot of women who want babies.
The bill is based not on science, not on what’s good for the economy, and not on what’s good for the citizens (see Rick Santorum interview), but on the religious beliefs of a segment of the nation. They are absolutely entitled to their beliefs, but to try to limit the freedoms of all female citizens by taking steps that would force them to legally abide by their personal moral laws and values is … well, it’s distasteful.
I’m sorry but I’m not up on in vitro fertilization. I’ll try to find the
Rick Santorum interview. I do understand that religion plays a
large role in why this is topical. So, I know there are case studies
on the earliest a fetus can survive outside of the womb. It’s been a
long debate still.
I am a pro-choice, period! I hate the fact that Government gets involved in personal and intimate matter like this one!
You are a true American from Russia.
if we all asked each other at least one of these questions the world would be so different
Those are an awful lot of questions with no easy answer. I have a question. Why is everyone so concerned about a life that isn’t sustainable outside the woman whose life the government is trying to control?
It’s not strictly government. There are specific groups who influence
bringing these issues to the table. It’s an ongoing battle for the
right of owning a woman’s body.
—No simple answer.
–The only thing I can add is: Even though I do not condone abortion; I still feel it should be my choice -should I elect to have one. (is that wishy washy?)
It is not wishy-washy. We must recognize the rights and beliefs of others and that their thoughts are their own intellectual and spiritual property which cannot be owned by others. We do not force or impose things on others in a democracy. Jesus does not impose. Jesus invites us to think a certain way.
I agree with Carl. It’s not wishy-washy. Different circumstances call for
different decisions. It’s a private matter.
You have asked all the questions . They are all so meaningful and yet conflict in many ways. Your comments are from meaningful people with reasonable ideas. I just don’t know what to say? I do know this, however. The separation between church and state must be preserved. Roger Williams presented in the 1640′s that there is a difference between sin and crimes. Sin should not be codified. Some things belong in only the state house and other things only in the church house. Jesus never went to the Roman Senate or Jewish Sanhedrin to get laws passed. God gives us choices. Hopefully the Holy Spirit will guide. But each choice is individual and personal. As a born again Presbyterian I submit Roe vs Wade must stand as distasteful as it may seem. You do not impose religion on people with laws. If you are so inclined you do it by conversion not with laws that don’t belong in the secular dimension of our society. If you believe abortion is wrong, don’t have one. Then mind your own business.
I agree. It just always seem to be a pressing issue. I do wonder if,
eventually, Roe vs Wade will be overturned. as pro-lifers are
quite passionate about the matter. I find it very imposing
because for the woman who find herself in that situation, it
cannot be an easy decision.
Definitely valid points for sure. I’m definitely pro-choice — a woman should know what she wants/what’s best for her situation. I don’t believe abortion should be used as birth control.
Years ago, I worked in a building that houses an abortion clinic on the ground floor. I was nearly always attacked by anti-abortion protesters as I walked in, especially if I had to work on a Saturday morning. They just assumed that I was going in for an abortion. It got me very angry and when they start preaching at me or pushing their literature in my face, I’d ask some of the same questions – will you be around to help? pay school fees? buy clothes? babysit?
Sounds like a small war zone. When I see images of the scene you
describe on TV, it makes me think of people who are fanatic and
crazed. I mean, they gear up for this and feel very strongly about
trying to dictate what someone should do about their personal
situation. Amazing, really.
Re: harassment outside of “abortion clinics” -as you so well point out, often they know not who they harass. Not only do people like you also work inside these buildings, but most of these places provide MANY other health services that poor women can’t get elsewhere. Mammograms. Pap smears. Family planning education and assistance.
I had a neighbor who went to a clinic because she and her husband desperately WANTED a child, even though they no no health insurance, and she wanted to find out why she wasn’t getting pregnant. She came home in tears, traumatized by all the people waving hideous posters in her face and yelling at her that she was a baby-killer.
What if, instead of standing around in front of health care clinics, those people did something USEFUL? Started a free neighborhood play group so mothers who can’t afford a babysitter could get out the house once a week? Worked as a classroom aide in a troubled school? Volunteered for a battered women’s shelter?
As difficult and mentally draining and traumatizing as it must be for a woman to make a choice about this most controversial topic, that choice still is her right. The Government’s role in all this is ensure, like it ensures all other individual rights of people, that such a choice can be made safely and legally. It is not the Government’s place to insert itself into what amounts to a matter that is highly personal and spiritual.
I would say the decision is difficult and draining also. I would think
a woman is seeing this so many ways when she is actually in the
situation of an unplanned pregnancy or however it occurred. I don’t
see this at all as being primarily initiated by the government. We
know there are interest groups out there that have its influences
and many promises politicians makes are based on those backers.
Hey there! (Waves) Just want everybody to realize that the ‘morning after pill’ is not a form of abortion. It takes 5 days for semen to travel to the egg and fertilize. Just a little ol’ fact that I think needs mentioned and made readily available.
Onwards to the actual issue of whether this is a child or a choice as I’ve seen plastered all over billboards everywhere…
There will more than likely always be contention between the two factions. This is not something that is going to be resolved easily, (or perhaps ever), because emotions are involved. It is difficult to get reliable, unbiased data from either side as to the when of the moment of life. And you’re right Totsymae…a blanket decision is not going to do it given the variables involved.
My concern is that this topic generally comes up during elections. This one pounding the fist on a podium here and that one screaming into a microphone there. Let’s get our heads on straight and concentrate on the fiscal issues of today. Treat this nation like a successful business and make sure we’re spending less than we’re bringing in. Get solvent and turn away from the entitlement issues, (not just welfare y’all…all these grants and forgiven loans to organizations, countries and such), which create a bird feeder effect.
I’m just worried that this issue comes up like a monster from the deep to do the ol’ magician’s trick and get us looking the other way from what’s really going on.
In the meantime, there’s going to be disagreements. Everybody is going to have their opinion, and Lord but there’s tons of those out there. Let’s table this for now and get our nation back on track.
Great topic though. Hope neutrality can be obtained at least in the interim of us trying to get back on track nation-wise.
Yes, there are many pressing issues on the table now. This one keeps
coming up, however and I suppose as long as pro-lifers are fighting
about it, the pro-choice folk will continue as well. Seems it becomes
more pressing at the state level or when state elections take place.
Gave you the Versatile Blogger Award btw. Love this site.
abortion is a very critical topic, i think the answer varies from one person to another. I too am one of those women who will rather prefer her own death than her unborn child’s.
I believe that a child is a living being right from the first week of fertilization.
but, i also believe that no one should bring a child to earth without sense of responsibility and love.
in countries like india so many children suffer so much because of their parents that i cant say that everyone of them are better off than “not being born”.
you have raised so many intelligent questions.
One reason I brought this up is that I’m not as informed as to how
this issue is handled in other countries. Beverly brought up some
points but what I do know is that India has a different perspective,
which you confirm here. It would be so much better if there was a
continued communal effort in “the village” raising the child because
unfortunate events do happen. Your statement of children suffering
makes me think of the many children that go “missing” and murdered
here at the hands of their own parents. Those would be extreme cases
but it happens far too often and once is too many.
If someone can not take care of a child then she could put him/her up for ADOPTION (as long as the mother’s life isn’t seriously endangered). I know plenty of families and couples that have been waiting to adopt, some never get the chance (like my sister-in-law) because there are too many other parents out there, also waiting to adopt.
I would NEVER expect a 16-year-old to keep and raise a child, but why isn’t adoption the #1 choice?
I used to think that might be a better option but going through the terms
of pregnancy, adoption may no longer become the option. A lot of
emotions go into carrying a child. I would think that could be just as
difficult as having an abortion. Very confusing and out of sorts, I would
surmise, a woman would be in that position and even moreso for a 16
year old.
I’m not advocating abortion. I simply can’t judge women who have one.
While adoption might indeed be a better option for some, perhaps many, we should recognize that there do exist broken family situations that are absolutely dangerous and abusive, preventing a teen from being able to carry the baby to term without significant risk of harm. There are no simple answers to such a complex situation that fit all circumstances. None of us are in a position to judge anyone else.
Loved your post, Totsaymae, but the comment thread is tremendous…starting major tremors from here to the North Pole. I believe in a woman’s right to have an abortion. As far as when a child is deemed a human being? I’d have to go with their first diaper change. Okay, seriously, I think Columbibveno, your first commenter said it best…”To determine the exact moment a soul enters a body… sounds arrogant to me.” That’s perfect in my mind.
You know, I think in some cases, the belief is based on what we need
and want at the given time and that will vary from one individual to the
next.
Great picture. Reading your post made my head ache in a good way. The questions are myriad and too complex, as you so beautifully illustrated. I will address a few. I am pro-choice period. I don’t believe that abortion should be used as a method of birth control but I do believe that a woman should have the right to decide if she wishes to bear a life and the responsibilities that come along with it. Anyone who doesn’t like it should “get the hell out of my uterus”.
I believe a fetus becomes a person from the point of consciousness not conception. The question is when is that? How can we definitively say that this doesn’t occur in utero? That question is both scientific and spiritual in nature. In which case, it can’t be measured and is unanswerable.
It seems kind of ludicrous that we argue this point when the seven billionth person just entered the world. We have overtaxed our resources, are in danger of running out of water, battling global warming, are unable to eliminate poverty, or provide medical care for all….. I’m just saying.
Thanks, Coco.
You mean consciousness on the part of the mother or child? In either
case, it’s a valid point to consider.
So many contributions have been made to the common good by people who could have been aborted.
I have to wonder how everyone who supports abortion forgets they were allowed to be born.
Oh, and please don’t squeeze the Charmin..okay, if you buy that much toilet paper.. I guess you are allowed to squeeze…
Bless You
paul
I remember seeing a fetus in a tiny jar when I was in high school.
Immediately, and for the longest time, I thought abortions to be
wrong but I’d also had a couple of family members who’d had
multiple abortions, which confirmed for me that it wrong. But I
also had to consider their lifestyles. Some are no more ready
for sex than they are for a child. For that matter, I’ll leave it at that.
Very conscious in choosing the toilet paper, so I squeeze.
Totsy, you brought up a very important topic and you got a lot of interesting responses. I sincerely believe that understanding each others viewpoint in a respectful manner is so important with these topics. I am not (nor have I ever been) “pro abortion”. People are going to have sex. Pregnancies are going to occur even when contraceptives are used. I do believe a woman should have the right and the responsibility of determining if a baby is a viable thing for her. In cases of younger teens, 13, 14, and 15, I think there should be a way to help the female make the best decision for her. If her daddy or her brother is the father of her baby, I would never think it right to insist that she go through the pregnancy if she did not want to. Similarly, in cases of rape, if a woman decides she does not want to bear a child, I think she has the right to end the pregnancy. I do understand the idea of “life begins at the moment of conception”. But, in some cases, bringing a new life into the world under dire circumstances is just not the right thing to do.
Yes, the responses were interesting and I’ve learned something, as I
hoped to, by raising the questions. I used to think abortion was wrong
but particular situations should be handled differently from others. Yet,
in any case, they should be handled with care and support, no matter
what the outcome may be. I’m not pro-abortion or anti myself. I only
have a general idea for why I would or wouldn’t abort theoretically.
What I think compounds the issue for a woman is the guilt or shame
associated with it by those who believe that abortions are wrong. God
is a forgiving One and knows us best, so any judge outside of Him is
irrelevant, as far as I’m concerned. The dynamics of the woman or
child’s situation has to be taken into account for sure.
I give you credit for wading into such turbulent waters! I won’t touch this issue with a ten-foot pole!
Why doesn’t life start at conception? What’s the point of conception if not life? We’re so wrapped up in searching for life in universe we cannot even see it at home anymore – http://wp.me/p20YNR-R
We’re only trying to treat the symptoms instead of the cause with abortion.
Here’s an interesting article to read about a recent case of a teenage father who was charged with murder but not the mother who was consenting to a “diy abortion” – http://www.audioevangelism.com/dlybrd/transcripts/DB_2005_08_26_text.htm
My words may not be worth much to many, but as a father I have no doubt when life begins.